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      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">Glen,</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">Sorry for sitting on
        this e-mail. It’s actually given me a lot to chew on, and drove
        me to even take a look at some of the A/P interfaces of current
        systems. More thoughts inline.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">On 09/01/2016 06:01 AM,
        Glen Whitney wrote:</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;"></p>
      <div class="markdown-here-exclude">
        <p></p>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:1472724106.20599.26.camel@post.harvard.edu"
          type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">I don't see either of the paragraphs below as undermining that point of
view; rather they reinforce it.  Indeed, I think one of the great
potential benefits of npoacct is to provide a low-cost, easy-to-begin-
with system for small NFPs, who may well not have significant
accounting expertise in-house.  Hence the ability for an A/P component
to present itself without accounting jargon (but perhaps with technical
terminology accessible for experts) is a terrific plus.</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p></p>
      </div>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;"></p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">I agree with all of
        this, but I do want to be careful about that parenthetical.
        Everything I’ve done and read makes me think that building
        interfaces that adapt to the user’s experience level, at a very
        fundamental level, is a fundamentally hard problem. I won’t
        speak for others on the list, but I know I myself am not the
        kind of UI/UX expert who’s in a position to break new ground on
        that.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;"></p>
      <div class="markdown-here-exclude">
        <p></p>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:1472724106.20599.26.camel@post.harvard.edu"
          type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">As for the second paragraph, if I understand the roadmap, it is to
develop npoacct as a collection of interoperating modules, so that it
can be approached piecemeal.</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p></p>
      </div>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;"></p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">I agree that’s the
        current thinking, and right now I’m not aware of any reason we
        wouldn’t do it that way, but I don’t think we necessarily have a
        hard commitment to that approach. If other considerations like a
        choice of framework made it difficult, it’s something we might
        consider trading off for other benefits.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">It also depends a little
        bit on your definition of “module.” The first release of the
        reimbursement system is expected to talk to ledgers through
        export functionality. If it continues to work that way, even as
        we build out the rest of the NPO Accounting software, is it
        still a “module?” I can understand different people answering
        that differently, and I don’t think it matters too much as long
        as we’re on the same page about functionality.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;"></p>
      <div class="markdown-here-exclude">
        <p></p>
        <blockquote
          cite="mid:1472724106.20599.26.camel@post.harvard.edu"
          type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">  So the idea that A/P qua Reimbursements
can operate independently from the eventual General Ledger module seems
to me completely consistent with such an architecture, and reinforce
the idea that a Reimbursement module now be conceived as suitable to be
the eventual A/P module.  Moreover it seems to imply conversely that
A/P components of existing systems, such as the one Steven described,
should be candidates for  (the foundation of) this Reimbursement
module, if they can be extracted as an independent
module/service/library -- as has been stated before as a likely path
for the npoacct project, to take an existing system or systems and
reconstrue them as a library or toolkit.</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <p></p>
      </div>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;"></p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">I agree with all this.
        So I went to evaluate some of the systems out there.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">I know it’s been a while
        since the project’s earlier evaluation of accounting systems,
        and given what I’ve said about priorities for the first release,
        the emphasis is a little different than the core accounting
        functionality that had center stage there. So I started from
        Wikipedia’s <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_accounting_software#Free_and_open_source_software">list
          of FOSS accounting software</a>.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">The reimbursement system
        needs to let requestors file requests through the web, so
        anything that requires a dedicated client was out. Long-term, I
        think it’s important for the health of the project that all our
        components be at least GPL-compatible, so that ruled out a
        couple more too.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">From there, I went
        through some of the more popular options. As much as possible, I
        tried to go through demos, to get a high level picture as
        quickly as possible. I spent some good time with ADempiere and
        LedgerSMB, and a little with FrontAccounting. I think there are
        a couple of features that we’ve identified as really core for
        the reimbursement system that would be difficult for all of them
        to support, which makes me think they’re not especially suitable
        for the job we have in mind.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">The first is that all
        program customization tends to be done through code. One of the
        ways we want the reimbursement system to save us time is by
        asking requestors the right questions about what they’re filing,
        to help them as much as possible to submit a complete report.
        Because of that, it’s important to be able to adapt the form, as
        either reimbursement policies change, or we find out that
        current forms aren’t giving users the right guidance. Requiring
        code changes to be able to do this is more overhead than we
        really want, especially since collecting information not
        anticipated by the system might require database schema changes.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">The second is that the
        systems don’t really seem to have much of a concept of
        collaborating to build a purchase order. For most businesses, I
        think this makes perfect sense: usually you’re sending purchase
        orders outside your organization, and you can’t expect those
        parties to log into your own systems to ask for corrections or
        changes. But that’s the core of the workflow for the
        reimbursement system. For some of the systems, it’s not clear
        that you can edit a purchase order at all after it’s finalized.
        Even when it is, it doesn’t provide the same tight feedback loop
        we’d like, where a requestor can see comments from the
        organization that say, “We can’t accept your request because of
        these reasons; please correct them and resubmit.”</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">If I’m mistaken in these
        evaluations, I’m happy to be corrected. They’re large systems,
        and I’d have no trouble believing there might be a particular
        angle I missed. But that’s what I’ve found so far, and without
        at least some indication that the system can provide the core
        functionality without too much revision, I can only justify
        spending so much time on further evaluation.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">I think this is all very
        understandable given that the reimbursement system we want to
        build has a very different emphasis from accounting software
        generally. Part of the reason we decided to prioritize it is
        exactly <em>because</em> the core of the software is not
        accounting: it’s useful to accounting departments, and needs to
        talk to an organization’s general ledger, but the core
        functionality is really more about filling out forms than
        bookkeeping. It’s something we can make progress on without
        getting into larger accounting issues.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">I share the impulse to
        build on what’s already there. Given that, I’m seriously looking
        at whether it makes sense to build this as a CiviCRM extension.
        CiviCRM already has a lot of the building blocks that we expect
        the system to have: forms defined by system administrators
        through the interface rather than code; and multiple parties
        having different views into that form by their role. And CiviCRM
        integration is a feature that we’ve already heard other NPOs say
        would be valuable, so we have a reason to build on top of it
        that’s unfortunately not there for the accounting systems. In
        the best case, the extension might be able to simply define the
        workflow and help build common forms; but even if the reality
        isn’t that rosy, it’s at least clearer that the core CiviCRM
        building blocks suit what we’re trying to build.</p>
      <p style="margin: 1.2em 0px ! important;">I’m going to be digging
        into that more over the next couple of days, and I’ll follow up
        with what I find. But that’s the current direction I’m
        exploring.</p>
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